kaz: "Kaz" written in cursive with a white quill that is dissolving into (badly drawn in Photoshop) butterflies. (Default)
[personal profile] kaz
I am not sure why I suddenly want to write pages and pages of posts on Chistmas Eve like seriously I have TEN THOUSAND THINGS I want to write about. Probably consequence of going on holiday which involved a lot of hiking which involved a lot of me thinking to myself. Sigh.

I've been thinking about my romantic orientation again. Which is, I admit, partly frustrating because I thought I'd FINALLY managed to pin it down and it's been elusive for YEARS and I was sohappy figuring out something I was happy identifying as.

The development of my orientation went a little like this:

I only really started thinking about it when I was in my twenties, then sort of flailed around a bit and settled on "aromantic" because I didn't really think I wanted to have a boyfriend (note the gender). I slowly became comfortable in that identity, then suddenly realised I'd entirely forgot about the possibility of a girlfriend. And that, in fact, the idea of a girlfriend was not nearly as alien or weird as that of a boyfriend. And that, actually, I'd been crushing on women. A lot. Since I was very young. And that my dream plan for my life involved living together with my BFF (whooo is probably reading this, hi!), possibly raising kids with her (probably adopted bar scientific meddling) and possibly marrying her for tax and visa reasons. Which didn't really fit in with most people's perceptions of friendship, and was furthermore pretty damn different from the desires that I'd seen other aromantic people express (which tended to involve a lot of stuff like being independent and living on your own - I think reading [livejournal.com profile] glad_to_be_a formed a lot of my ideas of what it meant to be aromantic). And furthermore, my crushes/squishes/whateveryouwanttocallthem had a distinct gender preference as I'd only once crushed on a guy and it felt like a fluke. You couldn't very well be aromantic with a gender preference, now could you? But on the other hand, I wasn't quite happy with calling it romantic. I mean, I was thinking of marrying my BFF because it'd make it easier wrt visa stuff, not because it was something I wanted. I wasn't sure if I wanted to date her (or was dating her, for that matter), or call her my girlfriend (and indeed, I call her my not!GF these days because this whole area is still a giant big SO CONFUSED). I didn't have any desire for the trappings of romance, and some of the things associated with coupledom actually seriously freak me out (there is this tendency for two people who are dating or married to present themselves or see themselves as a unit instead of two individuals in their own right, which I find disturbing, and the thought of it happening to me makes me want to flee to the other side of the earth). And, well, what the hell was romantic attraction anyway?

I'm still looking for an answer to this question, by the way. The only remotely useful one I've found is "it's romance if you think it's romance", which is at least clear in its definition but kind of very very circular. There's components that are often a part of romance (sexual interest, exclusivity, primary relationship, crush, specific types of strong emotional connection, desire for approval, etc.), but I haven't found a single one that's present in all romantic relationships or that's never present in nonromantic relationships. Any people who have romantic desires may weigh in on what they feel is the difference.

This led to - a year? maybe two? of intermittent agonising over whether I was aromantic or homoromantic, and whether the relationship I was in was romantic or friendship. In both cases, neither seemed to fit. I opted for "somewhere in between" as an interim measure while I figured things out, then got sick of the agonising and decided to stick with that for the time being. Then as time went on, I decided that I was actually somewhere in between and so was my relationship, and started to question the friendship/romance/family dichotomy we tend to stuff our relationships into. I started looking for a shorthand for "in between aromantic and homoromantic", went for "demihomoromantic", then discovered that some people were using demiromantic as analogous to demisexual (with romantic feelings and desires developing only after an emotional bond was already present) and ended up with greyhomoromantic instead. Which I have been using for... a few months now, I think? Not all that long.

So what's been making me question that?

First, I'm starting to become uncomfortable with the implicit binary assumptions of homo-, hetero- and bi-. For one, using "homoromantic" identifies me as a woman, which I'm not entirely comfortable with (and I'm also not comfortable that the terms in use are really problematic for nonbinary, agendered and other people who don't id as male or female.) I think I'm attracted, in some way, to women in a way that I'm not to men. But what about people who aren't either? I don't know! :(

Second, recently I've met a lot of ace people iding as aromantic who have expressed desires similar to mine - they want a BFF who's also their life partner, they might want to live together with this person, they might want to raise kids together. I think some of them even mentioned a gender preference. I'm starting to realise I may have let myself be driven away from aromantic based on the fact that the other aromantic people I was seeing seemed very different from me and I assumed that theirs was the "right" way to do aromanticism. But surely aromantic can entail different things. In fact...

For ages, I've sort of quietly thought that asexuality is the most diverse sexual orientation, because it's defined through the lack of something instead of the presence. We sort of have a microcosm of the sexual world - orientations in the form of romantic orientations, kinky folk in all degrees of varieties, pretty much anything that exists as an identity for sexual people seems to have some analogy for ace people - plus various "gradations" of asexuality like repulsed, indifferent, libido questions (although these do happen for sexual folk as well, but differently from what I can tell), the asexual spectrum with all the possible varieties of grey-a... I suspect one of the things that confuses people who first find the asexual community is the huge amount of jargon, but the thing is that we need it to talk about all the different identities and varieties of asexuality in our community. The only thing we have in common is lacking (or, for the spectrum people, nearly lacking) sexual attraction, and that's less of a commonality than the presence of a certain type.

Similarly, aromanticism can be incredibly diverse. Who are the people who don't have romantic attraction (whatever the hell that means)? There are the hermits. There are the people who want friendships but nothing that exceeds the bounds of friendships as socially defined. There are people who want something else. There are people who invest a lot in communities over individuals, who have a network of primary relationships, or just a few, or one - but still one that doesn't manage to fall into the "romance" box. Under this kind of thinking, I am definitely aromantic - I lack romantic attraction. (I sort of deduce this by the fact that it's only really aromantic people who I've seen asking the "but what the hell IS it anyway?!" questions; romantic people seem to know.) I've got something else, but that's not the question.

Thirdly, I have been thinking of hierarchies of relationships. I have railed for a while about how society expects us to fit our relationships into these neat little restricted boxes, and these boxes are ordered. The fabulous Irrationalpoint put it better than I've managed to:

In other words, from a very young age, we are taught The Relationship Hierarchy. Which is something like: blood ties and marriage ties trump other sorts of ties. Sexual relationships trump non sexual relationships. You have only one partner, who shall be your sexual partner and your lawfully-wedded spouse, and no other partners, and they trump all other relationships. Marriages that produce children trump non-procreating relationships, but Thou Shalt Not Be A Single Parent. “Family” and “Friends” are distinctive sets of people, and “Family” trumps “Friends”. “Friends” should mean only people of the same sex, but otherwise, same sex friends trump other-sex friends. You shall be emotionally intimate only with same-sex friends, unless you are a man, and then Thou Shalt Not Have Emotions.


This clearly works for a lot of people, although I imagine that it may not work very well and may cause a lot of pain that's not obvious looking in from the outside. It does not work for me. At all. In fact, sorting my relationships into these categories simply does not work for me. At all. The types of relationships I want? The types I already have? Are too cool for your puny boxes.

As a result, more and more I feel like the whole concept of a romantic orientation is asking me to define myself in terms of boxes that just don't apply - hence my constant back-and-forth not feeling comfortable with any of the options ending with me making my very own - that asking me "so what's your romantic orientation?" is simply the wrong question.

ALSO, I worry that by calling my relationship and desired relationship "in between friendship and romance" (which again feels a bit like I'm boxing it in) I'm trying to get relationship points from the hierarchy - that because I don't want what I have with my not!GF to be dismissed as "just" friendship I'm calling it sort of romantic ish in a way in order to get some of the importance that gets accorded to romantic relationships in our society - when really I should be trying to break down the hierarchy altogether, point out that friendship doesn't have to be "just", and that there are more options than friendship or romance. And sure, I don't think anyone would argue with me that in some situations that's not a good strategy and I can pretend to buy into the hierarchy to some extent for self-protection (and if they do, they're an arse), but surely if I'm in an asexual community I ought to be able to drop that.

CONCLUSION: I am feeling more and more as if I should a) be identifying as aromantic and/or b) just stop asking myself about my romantic orientation entirely because it's the wrong question with a dash of c) be breaking down the friendship/romance/family categorisation and the relationship hierarchy. At the same time, I find myself sad - I don't actually know anyone else who ids as greyhomoromantic and not sure I know anyone else who ids as greyromantic period. This is literally a word I created for myself when nothing else felt like it would fit, and the idea of having to drop it hurts.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-24 22:48 (UTC)
quinara: Sherlock Holmes thinks porn is boring. (Sherlock porn is boring)
From: [personal profile] quinara
I would say to keep your word if you think it represents who you are - it's not as if a lot of us weren't using 'asexual' before we realised it was a community-approved term, so I don't think the lack of anyone else using 'greyhomoromantic' should mean anything at all.

Otherwise, thanks for writing this post - because you've actually made me more secure in my aromanticism. Because I (also?) wouldn't mind having some sort of household-partner and (perhaps even) a child, and they would probably be a woman, mostly because I tend towards creating closer friendships with women, though I don't know how much that is that my secondary school was all girls, so I never really had that much experience making friends with boys, and my particular subject (sub)area is generally quite female, so I come into prolonged contact with men less frequently, plus I think part of me is aware that most men (like women) I meet are straight enough to make me get nervous about tripping some sort of mine (I obviously don't think many if any of them are going to be attracted to me, but I get nervous because I'm not sure if I would know/how I would deal with it - it doesn't help that the only guy I've really known to be attracted to me was very socially awkward, so never took any hints that I wasn't interested in talking to him, nor ever said anything explicit enough where I could justify actively rejecting him). I wouldn't mind having someone there, but I have no idea how to seek them out and wouldn't say I was ever 'attracted' to people in that respect. TBH I grow to dislike most people I come into prolonged contact with, so, though I still think there must be someone/some people out there whom I click with beyond 'you're OK during the working day; never spend more than eight hours with me in one go', I'm not sure it's ever going to come that easily. (In contrast, I feel I should note, I love meeting people in the short term and being thrown into situations where there's a group and nobody knows each other - though if there's no one queer in the group, at least alternative and open-minded in their interests if not orientationally, then I really start feeling it after a week. I'm not a complete misanthrope...)

For me, then, iding myself aromantic is a bit like my asexuality - experience so far suggests I am not romantically attracted to anyone (as I am not sexually attracted to anyone). I'm not ruling out the possibility and intellectually, perhaps, I am drawn to what could result from such an attraction. But, er, it ain't happening, as far as I can tell.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-24 22:53 (UTC)
meloukhia: An ace of hearts, with a heart-shaped candleholder carrying a lit tealight centred on the card (Ace love)
From: [personal profile] meloukhia
I know we have talked about this a lot, and it is another area where the lack of meaningful terminology is so frustrating. I hate the dichotomous divide between friendships and romantic (by which people usually mean sexual) partnerships. There are several people in my life whom I am very connected to and like a lot and want to share meaningful experiences with. But I don't consider those relationships romantic, nor are they friendships. I have been using 'friend+' to describe them but that does not really work for me either. I also kind of like 'platonic relationship' but I gather that actually has its own distinctly separate meaning in the asexual community, or people think I am just using a fancy word for friendship.

People get jargony when their existence is denied and excluded by society, when there aren't even words to describe our experiences so we have to make them up. And on that note, maybe I should start rolling greyromantic around in my noggin. Two people is all you need to start a revolution, right?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-25 01:53 (UTC)
meloukhia: A drawing of a cupcake. 'Everyone loves me, I'm a cupcake' is printed above. (Everyone loves me (cupcake))
From: [personal profile] meloukhia
Ok, I am now referring to these kinds of relationships as zucchini. This is official, and so shall it be.

I am actually not averse to borrowing a word from another language since English does that oh so very much anyhoodle. This is so frustrating because it feels like English forces me to define these relationships by something they are not, rather than what they are, and I loathe reverse definitions. Although I kind of like queerplatonic as a definer for the attraction I feel to my zucchini; it neatly avoids discussing the gender of either party involved, while emphasizing the idea that it is a deep (almost symbiotic in some ways) emotional connection that transcends what I think of as friendship. Hrm.
Edited (That typo really bugged me.) Date: 2010-12-25 02:00 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-25 12:55 (UTC)
meloukhia: A person screaming, hands over eyes (Cover my eyes)
From: [personal profile] meloukhia
Hem, yes, that is a problem and something I definitely do not want to be reinforcing. Damn. I was really liking queerplatonic too.

And 'vegetarian' I think is already in use somewhere...dammit!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-25 13:01 (UTC)
meloukhia: Red stockinged legs in black heels, standing next to a watering can with a red flower. (Fall forest)
From: [personal profile] meloukhia
Ah! Excellent! I will be unsad again, then. I think it has definite potential, and in its own way, challenges the myth that ace people can't be queer. The nice thing about it too is that because it's not borrowed or completely artificially constructed, it's Understandable even if people may need it fleshed out to get it. Which is a thIng I like in jargon.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-26 22:47 (UTC)
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Default)
From: [personal profile] avendya
I also really like queerplatonic. [considers using it on her relationships]

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-25 04:05 (UTC)
ext_431327: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sciatrix.livejournal.com
On the definition of romance: When I have tended to ask nonasexuals, I often get back a definition of "friendship but with sex!" I think that's the most frustrating definition of all.

The thing that really used to bug me about the way I saw aromanticism discussed was that if you wanted a relationship in the abstract, you... somehow weren't aromantic? Which, hang on, is it about attraction or not? I think with me, I actually started with the identity and insisted that other people were doing it wrong (or at least differently from me) rather than assuming I had the wrong identity because it didn't match what other people said they wanted.

And yes yes yes on not wanting the romance/friendship hierarchy thing! And on the "trying to get relationship points" thing! I mean, despite identifying as aromantic I've often considered dating just to get some of that cultural credit given to my relationships, because it sucks how little friendships are supposed to matter. Even very close friendships--you're supposed to drop them the moment a romance comes along, after all.

How does one define friendship, anyway? It seems to me that it encompasses almost the entire spectrum of affectionate human relationships between unrelated people, all the way from acquaintances to bosom buddies, and we really have not got enough words to define all the different gradations. The words we DO have get devalued, too--I mean, even words like BFF have a connotation of immature teenagers attached, and there really aren't any words at all for friendships that are meant to last forever.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-26 02:54 (UTC)
ext_431327: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sciatrix.livejournal.com
Oh yeah, it's definitely wrong once you stop to think about it. That definition has actually become one of the things that pings me that someone might be aromantic-ish--if they absolutely can't wrap their heads around a different definition of romance besides friends-with-sex, I tend to think that they're not experiencing the romantic stuff either. If that makes sense?

I don't know if mine was the better one, exactly--it seems to have led to a bunch of flailing and arm-waving. And certainly generally going "well I think you're all wrong about the way this identity should work!" is not necessarily the best reaction to have...

And self-protection... well, yeah. And friendship--seriously, I was having this conversation a while ago with SlightlyMetaphysical, but we have so few words to describe friendship and different kinds of friendship that when you stop to examine them you can really see the devaluing. I wonder if it might derive from an older distinction between "family" and "not-family"? Because your family's supposed to be with you until someone dies (ideally, we all know it doesn't work out that way) and your significant other is counted as a family member, but friendships aren't. Which is silly--I think my closest friends, the ones I see every day and talk to all the time and miss terribly when I don't get to talk to are definitely part of my family.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-26 14:18 (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
(SlightlyMetaphysical here, wondering if you deliberately wrote so much awesome in my brief internet absence just to vex me)

I had this idea, a while ago, about turning a large part of my blog content into experimentations and forays into non-binary relationships. I could see a lot of the stuff on the horizon that you're struggling with. On the one hand, I don't want to be invisible. I don't want to have to scrounge on 'friendships' to give me some crumb of what romantic people experience. I want something I can proudly hold up and say: "This is my shiny new queer relationship." On the other hand, this causes so many problems. How do I refer to my Q.R.s in a way which doesn't uphold the relationship binary? How do I priorotise my Q.R.s without doing everything I was so originally against in marginalising friendship? What seperates my relationships where people consent to Q.R.s from friendships which may have similar emotional content but with people less enthusiastic to consent (ie. straight, monogamous men will be unlikely to want to be my zucchini, but that doesn't make the relationship invalid). What romantic orientation does having a Q.R. make me? How do I introduce my Q.R.s to my mother?
And, chiefly, where does one even find Q.R.s in the first place?

So far, you're doing way better at thinking about all this than me. I love the idea of referring to your paramours as some random word. I was actually considering something similar myself, giving each one (theoretically, I may end up with more than one at a time [hah! chance would be a fine thing!]) some title, like 'darling' or 'beau', and then referring to them as 'my...', then doing the explaining bit whenever people got the courage to ask me, and living my life happily like that.

sent here via meloukia

Date: 2010-12-29 00:15 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
I really like the term romantic friendship and that's what I aim for. It's an older term and I really wish that it would come back into use because I don't find it hard to explain -- I just go "think Xena and Gabrielle -- a relationship that is obviously a relationship, but has no sex involved".

For me, romance is... the very UBER-stereotypical trappings that come with relationships. It's actions, like "here's a dozen roses and homemade lasagna at a candlelit dining room table for Valentine's Day" and "diamond rings on the anniversaries". To be aromantic is to be... low-key with your relationships. You don't care for that stuff, and it's much more satisfying to have the small things. Someone to curl up with if you really need it, someone to help you with the day-to-day things, someone who will cook for you if you're going to be working late. Things like that.

Maybe the difference is that, with romance, your life revolves around the other person? And so, as an aromantic person, your relationships are more of a matter of "two people, meeting together and building a life together, yet fully independent of each other, instead of 2 halves of a whole"?

I'm not sure that second part is coming out the way that I intend it to, though.

(Granted, I'm demisexual, but definitely don't think of myself as aromantic, so take this with a huge grain of salt.)

Re: sent here via meloukia

Date: 2010-12-29 00:48 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
I can see wanting to get away from the binary. As far as b> goes.. .If that's the case, I think that's more of a reason to use that term (if it fits you, obviously). But I'm weird and contrary like that. :) I'll also say that I don't rank platonic relationships lower than relationships because I automatically relate platonic relationships to romantic friendships, which are both just "other types" of partner-style relationships.

People may not buy into that but, in my experience, that's the societal ideal that defines romance. I mean, you don't see "omg, my love bought me a bunch of broccoli. :D" in Valentine's Days commercials. But, to me, that's romance because it's proving that you know me. You know that I'm diabetic, so candy is out. You know that I grew up struggling for food so fruit and veg are still a treat, even if it's something I can get regularly now. Things like that. That's what romance is to me, but like I said. But, I think that in a discussion like this, we need to talk about what society defines romance as. (Maybe that's where we're getting all twisted up and confused? I'm not sure. I'm just kinda babbling here. :P)

Good point.

It could be that we, as a society, have simply outgrown the "old" definitions of relationships and romance and haven't come up with new models and terminology to work with. And that makes it fun for those of us who don't have traditional relationships, doesn't it? -wrinkles nose-

I couldn't tell at all! :)

Re: sent here via meloukia

Date: 2010-12-29 00:58 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
Yup. Pretty much. -laughs-

So, my solution is to basically just chuck it all and not worry about whether I'm aromantic or not. And, really, it's nobody's business how I express myself in relationships, outside of the people I'm in relationships with and people I may potentially be in relationships with.

Just less brainbreaky that way. And when you have as few thinky!spoons as I get daily, you gotta conserve what you can. (I have a lot of cognitive disabilities due to my disabilities.)

Re: sent here via meloukia

Date: 2010-12-29 01:14 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
I wish someone had done this work for me, so now if I'm loud about it maybe someone will run across it who needs it.

I can identify with this. That's why I'm open about my multiplicity, especially since I'm on the spectrum and not on either end of it. I guess our "MUST DEFINE THIS" areas are just different.

Again, People = complicated. -grin-

I hope you find the answers you need. :) -offers a hug-

Re: sent here via meloukia

Date: 2010-12-29 01:10 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
See, I don't really worry too much about whether I'm giving off the wrong impression because romance is so completely different from person to person. And the chances that my definition of romance is completely wrong for someone is pretty high.

I guess that I don't really understand the whole "aromantic" term. It kind of makes me tilt my head and go "How can you be not 'a term that has no standard definition'?" It seems like it's unnecessarily splitting hairs, to me. But I could be speaking out of privilege because I don't feel the need to examine whether I'm romantic or not. (Both because of my disabilities and because I feel that what type of relationship I have with someone is between me and them and nobody else.)

Re: sent here via meloukia

Date: 2011-01-02 01:25 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] amethystfirefly
When you look at it that way, yeah, it makes total sense. Thanks! :D

(no subject)

Date: 2011-01-09 01:31 (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Me, I'm grayromantic! Well, I don't actively identify as such, but technically that's what I am. Personally I feel like if the romantic orientation thing doesn't work for me (which it doesn't), why try to force myself within it? If you ever want to talk more about this stuff, feel free to e-mail me! I'd love to talk grayromanticism :-)

--ily of "asexy beast"

(no subject)

Date: 2011-03-14 16:50 (UTC)
verity: buffy embraces the mid 90s shades (Default)
From: [personal profile] verity
Just coming back here to leave an actual comment on this post. I'm romantic and sexual myself, but also had a queerplatonic relationship as the #1 most important relationship in my life for a while. This post was super super relevant and awesome for me (and for my zucchini!).

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